Water Cooled MG-13s

[sbl11]

Much like the Mauser banner marked guns, I feel that these too were intended specifically for export to other axis partners in Europe. It would not be a stretch at all to imagine a similar situation as one finds with the Portuguese contract k98's which were stamped with the Portuguese crest prior to shipment to Portugal.

[bmg17a1]

I have at least one ST barrel with what appears to be a very tiny waffen with a number 1 in it.

Bob Naess

[Bil]

Oh,no-here we go! Just when we think we have something figured out,new facts appear! Anyway,we are making more progress than has been done elsewhere! ---bil

[TactAdv]

I have at least one ST barrel with what appears to be a very tiny waffen with a number 1 in it.

Bob Naess

HAHAHH! -YOU- of all people!!! ;-)

Okay, here's my two cents on things like this- Since you state it is largely illegible, we may never be able to match it up to the list of WaA stempels that would be appropriate for the Rheinmetall facility in question. That said.....

If you look at the above pictures of the ST-61 receivers, they all have a variety of both test proofing (high pressure parts), or inspectors stamps, in addition to the common "Reichsadler stempels" of acceptance.....so I can't put too much faith in any illegible marking; it may be a WaA stempel....there are forensic methods to "raise" the markings, if anyone wants to go that route of argument. And, as I know you are well aware Bob, I think one of the things that has always amused me about discussions like this is that when interested collectors go looking at things like this here, they tend to take it as an absolute, i.e., "...if there -IS- a WaA stempel present, well then, it MUST be correct for it to be there"!! People tend to make assumptions that these cases are all absolutes with no possibility of error, either on the part of the person who did the stamping, or whether it really -IS- a WaA stempel to begin with. It was wartime Germany, there were all kinds of human errors made all the time, almost all these facilities made more than one type of weapon or equipment, so there was plenty of room for errors to be made.....wrong stamp, no stamp, wrong inspector stamp, etc., etc. They were fanatical about it, but they were human too. There are many, many recorded aberrations known for other weapons......supposedly "incorrect" inspector WaA stamps, etc., so it is not overtly setting off any alarm bells just yet, especially since you can't definitively read it as it is now.

In this one case, I would be content to believe that you -DO- have a WaA stempel there, they are pretty well recognized, but as to why it is there, I'd be content also to think it is an aberration, i.e., since they were making LuftWaffe accepted MG-15 barrels assumably simultaneously, I can easily see an inspector getting carried away and just whacking that ST-61 BBL, too. Also remember many of the actual Inspectors got moved around and it is documented that "incorrect" stempels appeared at facilities that were "wrong" for that Inspector ( as was known) until he got a new stamp issued. Things happen.

It would be interesting if you could ascertain the actual number there, as THAT could then be connected to known Rheinmetall WaA inspectors, etc., or if completely unconnected, that would carry on the discussion as to what facility properly used that particular WaA inspector marking???

I do think it is probably an easy thing to believe, on the whole, that the entire ST-61 water-cooled front end was made elsewhere than the Rheinmetall facility that made all the other parts as it goes without saying that the entire front end simply does not match the industrial and manufacturing flavor of the other "MG-15" parts that make up what is, essentially, the back half of the ST-61 gun design as produced and assembled.

-TomH

[bmg17a1]

for your further entertainment, here's a pic. The serial is 968Kr. Sure looks like a waffen to me, with a '1' in the center, and is legible. I haven't looked up on my waffen picture list to see if it thwt style is there, but looks like pretty common style IMO.

bob

[TactAdv]

Bob, that is not a specific WaffenAmt inspectors stempel, it is a more common 'Abnahmestempel' ("acceptance stamp"). Take a look at my previous photos of the Krieghoff MG15 and the second ST-61 receiver side. The Krieghoff gun has the same graphic style of 'Abnahmestempel', and the ST-61 has the later "full eagle"style. Abnahmestempelen were just a stamping that indicated military production acceptance via a regional Inspectors office, appearing on literally, almost everything, and meaning lit. "Property of the Reich". These are also very commonly known as the 'Prüfstempel' (testing inspectors stamp) when the item is a weapon, both of which were official functions of a separate Organization (from WaPrüf, who issued and was responsible for all WaffenAmter inspections and, thus, stampings) known as the HeeresAbnahmewesen for the Wehrmachtl, and for the Luftwaffe a simiar organization known as the B.A.L ("Bauaufsichten des ReichLuftfahrtministerium"). Many larger firms had an official in-house inspector, under the authority of the Government who would then officially accept the finished products on behalf of the Government, these were known as 'BA', or "BetriebsAbnahme" and are the common generic form of Abnahmestempel you have here. Specifically numbered WaffenAmter inspector stempels are a form of Abnahmestempel, as are LuftWaffe BAL or BA stempels; the difference is that specific WaA stempels indicated a specific INSPECTOR had given the approval to the item, versus the more generic military acceptance for the Abnahmestempel mark.

For those seriously interested, you need to acquire the definitive tome on the subject:
"Handbuch Deutscher Waffenstempel: auf Militär- und Diensthandwaffen 1871-2000"


And as a VERY good basic reference toward an initial understanding of the wartime Inspections system, Claus Espeholt has a superb article online:
http://claus.espeholt.dk/mediearkiv/waae.pdf
-TomH

[TactAdv]

Question- Can someone with an actual W/C parts-kit tell me if there ARE any stamps, markings, or other things on the water-jacket or other front-end parts?

Specifically, is there any chance of a 'WaA134' waffenamt stempel on these parts?? Please look carefully!

if so, the discussion may get real interesting and could provide some further data as to why the front end parts look so......crappy in comparison.

-TomH

[bmg17a1]

Thanks for the explanation, but the point was that it is a military acceptance stamp which would not occur on purely commercial prduction sold commercially, which I thought was at issue here. I would suppose the real way to separate out the guns would be those that did not have military acceptance stamps on them. If they all do, then it is more difficxult to maintain that they are purely commercial production.
The waterjackets that I have have a variety of stamps on them mostly single numbers in circle or squares, plus a larger square with several numbers and letters in it which I suspect are from the MAS arsenal.
I have not found any of the ususal waffens on any of them so am out of the rumning on that issue and I suspect there are not any.

Bob Naess

[oakrodent]

I am having my friend get me some of the papers that are in French. I will also have my hands on a ST-61 and MG-15 parts kits. I will comb over the ST-61 for waffen amps and any other type of stamping. I will also compare the two kits parts. Should be interesting to see if there are any differences. My friend is out of the country and should be back next week some time. He's the one that started it, so hopefully he has some more documentation.

[TactAdv]

Thanks for the explanation, but the point was that it is a military acceptance stamp which would not occur on purely commercial prduction sold commercially, which I thought was at issue here.

Bob Naess

That is the issue, yes. MY point was that such a generic marking could be..... irrelevant to this particular item in that it could have been applied more in the vain of meeting a proofing qualification. I would suggest that, even though we are surmising the ST-61 was a commercial product, (...likely sold out of one of Herrmann Göring's many illicit sidebar dealings, remembering that Göring outright controlled Rheinmetall-Borsig at the time) that foreign governments would commonly require as a matter of due course that it still meet (German)military specification, i.e., hence "proofing", just as is done current-day. Such an Abnahmestempel would assure that it had passed the proofing identical to Wehrmacht/Luftwaffe.

If a WaA134 stempel can be positively shown on any of the front end parts, that is the one associated with known MAS production of other items.

"Proof" is a matter of extant historical record or relic, everything else is merely conjecture, albeit perhaps educated conjecture.
-TomH

[Bil]

Going to muck things up a bit-we know there are minimal markings on the front ends of these-I have some faint circles under the paint on mine.We also know the receivers are marked with RM logo,and ST61.NOW-what about anything that may be inside the receiver,or any of the other parts? Are they marked with WaAmpts or no? I realise that they could have been mix and match once they got here,but did the imported just get the fronts and add the rears? The importer has the torched receiver bits marked MG 15,anyone ever see torched receivers with ST 61? Anyone with ST61 on the receiver have one that has never been torched? If so,what are the parts marked? Just a few questions,pay attention,there will be a short quiz at the end! ---bil

[TactAdv]

NOW-what about anything that may be inside the receiver,or any of the other parts? Are they marked with WaAmpts or no?

I don't have a W/C parts set, but my suspicion as indicated in an earlier post in this thread above would be that it would not surprise me, either way, for all the reasons I mentioned then.

I realise that they could have been mix and match once they got here,but did the imported just get the fronts and add the rears? The importer has the torched receiver bits marked MG 15,anyone ever see torched receivers with ST 61?

My understanding is that they came in (here) as complete guns, ST-61 guns. One of the other posters in this thread was the actual person who cut up all the MG-15 guns for IMA, perhaps he will chime in if he wants. ;-)

-TomH

[Bil]

Thanks,it would be interesting to see how the receiver and rear parts were marked.Hopefully not in Japanese! ---bil

[sbl11]

Oh don't drag me into this any further bil! hahaha ..Its about time I instigate a fight on here! Though I have found some more documents in regards to Japanese mg-15's

[amafrank]

I've got a couple parts sets and have gone through quite a few more. The markings on the waterjackets are similar to those on other east bloc guns I've seen. Little squares with numbers, circles and such as that. The buttstocks and bipods I've seen have no markings and have machining and assembly methods similar to the waterjackets. I've seen nothing that would indicate manufacture in the WWII era or by any german controlled mfg's. The rest of the parts are MG15 parts with luftwaffe and mfg proofs found on military guns. It must be remembered that a large part of these water cooled kits were imported by IMA or Interord and for all we know they could have imported only the waterjackets, buttstocks and bipods and tossed MG15 parts in to build the kits. Unless complete guns are found most of this info is worthless.....

Frank

[TactAdv]

Unless complete guns are found most of this info is worthless.....

Frank

Agreed....however, the one overriding fact is that these guns have receivers marked ST-61, marked with wartime dates, and carrying markings by a company that was officially dismantled in 1945. That pretty much speaks to a NON-postwar time frame for the receivers, at least. That single salient fact does nothing to indicate ANYTHING about the water-cooled status of the guns, but raises a much larger question then, what was the "ST-61" intended configuration when the RECEIVERS were first made??? NOTHING about the water-cooled status found today does anything to explain away the war time markings and dates on those receivers, period.

I agree with you Frank, on all your points on the water jackets/front end parts, but then where do the German wartime "proofed" water-cooled barrels fit in?? Presumably, the stampings on these barrels are agreed to be more likely German, than East Bloc. War time barrels, then? They certainly don't look East Bloc, post-war?

It is those receivers and barrels that are really the mystery. Do you have any thoughts as to explaining those two, just by themselves? Water-cooled jackets aside......what is the story of the "ST-61" marked receivers and then the water-cooled barrels. With the markings on both, it deepens the intrigue. If it was the receivers only, then there might be more plausible scenarios for believing the "ST-61" was perhaps meant as an air-cooled gun to start,,,,converted later, wherever. But with the barrels too, it makes no sense. Perhaps these guns were acquired as commercial air-cooled "MG-15" guns, and the Roumanians completed them as W/C?

-TomH

[amafrank]

Barrels are easy....there were huge quantities of spares made for the wartime guns and huge stocks left over after the war. We've seen a substantial quantity of barrels in new condition for the 42's, 34's, 15's in this country brought in by a number of importers. Imagine what was available right after the war in warehouses across europe. Crates of ready made barrels to be used, adapted or modified for whatever purpose the users needed. During the war the availability would have been even greater with manufacturers still making parts for obsolete guns like the MG15. I can see large quantities of these barrels being used by someone making a "new" watercooled version. Why make the hard parts when they are laying all over.

I don't have as simple an answer on the receivers. Maybe they were a commercial venture. Maybe a military...who really knows?
I hear guys say they've seen wartime pics of the watercooled guns being used but no one ever has a link or a pic to share.....I'd like to see just one verifiable pic. All I can say is that I don't have the answers either. I've never actually seen an ST61 marked receiver in person, only pics. I've got some friends in england who can check out the pattern room but only pics so far for me. ..... keep looking Tom. Perserverence may pay off.

Frank

[bmg17a1]

Haven't read this string for a while, but will add, since the perp was anonymous for his protection, that I cut up the receivers of the MG15s in bond at Century Arms. Walter Newman and I were up there for a week or two cutting up Schwarzlose, MG15s, MG34s, 11mm Hotchkiss AA guns, etc. All the guns had been in bond at century destined for and imported specifically as "kits". We made an effort to try and retain 10 examples of every type of gun as post samples but were denied sine the import paperwork specifically said purpose of import was for kits. The MG15s had been disassembled and whomever had prepared them for cutting didn't know that there are two receivers: inner and outer, with the inner actually being the functional receiver. So we had to disassemble them further for cutting. I don't recall seeing any that were marked ST61 of the 400 plus receivers that were there. One of us would have noticed it in handling them as they were quite clean and not heavily cosmolined. Since cuttng the receivers, I've seen quite a few of the MG15 kits over the years, at IMA, and at shows and haven't come across any ST61 marked receivers covers, nor has anyione reported any on the MG sites.

Bob Naess