When you buy a kit and it has some matching serial
numbers, how do you know if it was stamped period WWII
.
Sometimes you see crossouts and stamped renumbering.
Did they do that in WWII as the MGs came back and were
rebuilt or are all of these post WWII markings?
The reason I ask was that I read that DOT kept up production of
the MG34s not only to provide new MGs but also to be a supplier of parts for the
MGs aready out there. Were their parts numbered as they went on these serviced MGs?
I also have a top cover with same number as barrel shroud
but with obvoious different font ( and no suffix letter under it ).
No sign of scrubbing or crossout.
On this one its Obviously not stamped at same time but when?
Serial Numbers?
-
DARIVS ARCHITECTVS
- Field Marshal
- Posts: 2442
- Joined: Wed Aug 31, 2005 12:24 am
- Anti-spam: Mg42
- Location: Minnesota
Re: Serial Numbers?
Parts are often renumbered at a German arsenal, but more commonly by postwar arsenals from other countries when they are refurbishing guns. Since most parts on German machineguns are not serial number stamped, you cannot know if it is truly "all matching" like you can with a k98 rifle. In such a case, it's good enough if you can find the German waffenamts (inspection stamps) that prove that the parts are German and not Yugoslavian. It is difficult to detect restamps or additions of numbers that "force match" a part to the rest of the gun. You have to be VERY familiar with the contours of the metal and know what the originial milled finish is supposed to look like, including the direction of the milling, in order to distinguish false markings from original ones. Font size is a clue. Only collectors who have collected for decades and specialize in collecting a particulat weapon can distinguish authentic from fake markings. On k98's, the science of detecting fakes is very refined, since fakes that look VERY authentic abound. For machineguns like the MG-34 and MG-42, faking is generally not performed in a manner that is convincing because serial numbers are not on all parts, so "all matching" is not proveable for these guns. Also, the price of a MG is not affected nearly as much by it being "all matching" as it is with a rifle like a k98.
DARIVS ARCHITECTVS
Knight's Armoury
Knight's Armoury
Re: Serial Numbers?
Serial-Numbers........
As you put this into the "MG34-Setion"......I can tell you from what I have seen over the past 20+ years of collecting and working on these.
Basically, The MG34 parts will match the Receiver and Barrel-Jacket numbers.......people will tell you that "Guns on the Front-Lines were repaired by the unit weapons-repair-section and then returned to the front...which is true.
"But" you are asking a specific question as to weather a mix-match MG-34 parts-set is oroginal (?)........generally, no.....period.
I say this because you have to know where the major-sellers are getting their "Parts-Kits" from.....and know that the countries that were storing/refurbishing/refitting these guns after WWII would re-number parts so that they would not get mixed up with another gun.
With that said......a "matching-number" gun (or Parts-Kit) brings more money than something just thrown together. So you have to watch what you buy......not listen to possibilities as to why it has a "line-out" or that the numbers don't match.
Take a careful look at the size and "font" (read that as "style") of the numbers and letters stamped.
Know that the Receiver and Barrel-Jacket are "Engraved" numbers......and that other than those two major parts the parts are stamped....... only smaller "Hardened-Steel" parts such as Bolts are also engraved.
Knowing this........the person marking that gun's parts during WWII would only have a limited number of different size hand-stamps (the two major parts being engraved with larger numbers and possible a letter..........so if one set of numbers of the same size as another, but of different "font", would indicate that someone is trying to pass off the part as original.
You have to ask "why would someone take a part......weld over the old number and restamp another number on it to match".......as DA has said, look at the surrounding areas fot "tells" of areas being welded/ ground/ refinished.
I see this a lot on the MG34 Parts-Kits that were brought in over the last 15-years especially.
Line-Outs (?????)......look at the K-98s that are coming in from Russia.....bolts don't match and electric-engravers used to force-match a serial-number.
If you have ever seen a WWII German spare-parts can for these guns you would know that some spare (un-numbered) parts and assemblies were there....other could be ordered from the rear supply channels.
Line-offs (to me) indicate that the parts-kit is something that was put together after WWII by someone other than the German war machine. Does one line-of insure that it isn't "originally number by a WWII weapon-repair-facility (?).......you can never be 100% sure cause that one man in 1,000 repaining MG34s may have done it. "But"....at the number of "line-offs" and renumbered gun parts that we are seeing in the recent past 15-years (?), but not on guns brought back just after WWII should show how much the WWII German War Machine used "line-offs" of serial-numbers as the norm....they just didn't as the norm.
Regards,
RichardS in MI.
Blanksguy2001@chartermi.net
As you put this into the "MG34-Setion"......I can tell you from what I have seen over the past 20+ years of collecting and working on these.
Basically, The MG34 parts will match the Receiver and Barrel-Jacket numbers.......people will tell you that "Guns on the Front-Lines were repaired by the unit weapons-repair-section and then returned to the front...which is true.
"But" you are asking a specific question as to weather a mix-match MG-34 parts-set is oroginal (?)........generally, no.....period.
I say this because you have to know where the major-sellers are getting their "Parts-Kits" from.....and know that the countries that were storing/refurbishing/refitting these guns after WWII would re-number parts so that they would not get mixed up with another gun.
With that said......a "matching-number" gun (or Parts-Kit) brings more money than something just thrown together. So you have to watch what you buy......not listen to possibilities as to why it has a "line-out" or that the numbers don't match.
Take a careful look at the size and "font" (read that as "style") of the numbers and letters stamped.
Know that the Receiver and Barrel-Jacket are "Engraved" numbers......and that other than those two major parts the parts are stamped....... only smaller "Hardened-Steel" parts such as Bolts are also engraved.
Knowing this........the person marking that gun's parts during WWII would only have a limited number of different size hand-stamps (the two major parts being engraved with larger numbers and possible a letter..........so if one set of numbers of the same size as another, but of different "font", would indicate that someone is trying to pass off the part as original.
You have to ask "why would someone take a part......weld over the old number and restamp another number on it to match".......as DA has said, look at the surrounding areas fot "tells" of areas being welded/ ground/ refinished.
I see this a lot on the MG34 Parts-Kits that were brought in over the last 15-years especially.
Line-Outs (?????)......look at the K-98s that are coming in from Russia.....bolts don't match and electric-engravers used to force-match a serial-number.
If you have ever seen a WWII German spare-parts can for these guns you would know that some spare (un-numbered) parts and assemblies were there....other could be ordered from the rear supply channels.
Line-offs (to me) indicate that the parts-kit is something that was put together after WWII by someone other than the German war machine. Does one line-of insure that it isn't "originally number by a WWII weapon-repair-facility (?).......you can never be 100% sure cause that one man in 1,000 repaining MG34s may have done it. "But"....at the number of "line-offs" and renumbered gun parts that we are seeing in the recent past 15-years (?), but not on guns brought back just after WWII should show how much the WWII German War Machine used "line-offs" of serial-numbers as the norm....they just didn't as the norm.
Regards,
RichardS in MI.
Blanksguy2001@chartermi.net
-
cipollinaj
- Feldwebel
- Posts: 57
- Joined: Sun Jun 18, 2006 10:41 pm
- Location: NY
Re: Serial Numbers?
Take a careful look at the size and "font" (read that as "style") of the numbers and letters stamped.
Know that the Receiver and Barrel-Jacket are "Engraved" numbers......and that other than those two major parts the parts are stamped
Hi, thank you for the responses.
I checked a number of barrel extensions on the internet to check this info.
I'm finding that all manufacturer's codes seems to be engraved
but the serial numbers were either engraved or stamped on the barrel extension .
Are both these correct?
-
42rocker
- Administrator
- Posts: 3251
- Joined: Fri Jan 11, 2008 6:03 pm
- Anti-spam: Mg42
- Location: Florida
Re: Serial Numbers?
Great info to share Blanksguy. Its great that everyone on this website shares so much info.. Thanks Everybody.
cipollinaj, I have been going to Brian's website brpguns.com a lot lately just to view his stuff and read his statements and hopefully learn a few things about German vs Jugo parts.. Also to buy when I can afford it..
Later 42rocker
cipollinaj, I have been going to Brian's website brpguns.com a lot lately just to view his stuff and read his statements and hopefully learn a few things about German vs Jugo parts.. Also to buy when I can afford it..
Later 42rocker
Re: Serial Numbers?
cipollinaj,
Again.....as a reminder.....you are posting in the MG34 Setion so we will cover just those MG34 items.
First......earlier German MG34 items (Pre-WWII) would have the many acceptance-stamps and manufacturer's "tracking-Numbers" for certain items......barrels (and barrel-extensions) would be marked during manufacture.
Barrels issued with earlier MG34s would have the serial-numbers sometimes engraved......initially 4-barrels per gun either numbered 1-2-3-4 or A-B-C-D........and I recall something about an "S" for fully usable barrels......as the barrels wear....a smaller "s" would be put next to the capital "S" to show a worn-barrel. Later guns were issued with 2-barrels.......then just what was in the gun was sent to the front/"shipping-point".
You have to note that the German War Machine had more time to make things look "pretty" and functional prior to the outbreak of WWII......as time went on, many of the acceptance-stamps and engraving went away (usually, but not always).....would depend on who ran the instections.
Barrels were also marked with caliber measured.....that's the very small 7.90, 7.91, 7.92, 7.93, etc. that you see stamped on the barrel next to the barrel-extension.
On the Barrel-Extensions......more time to mark them "pre-war" and less time as the war progressed.
Barrel-Extensions on the MG34 you will find no serial-numbers.....just the waffenampts, manufacturer's-codes, and sometimes you will find what we call "lot-numbers" or "tracking-codes" for the manufacturers to track how these heat-treated parts held up for wear and cracking during use.......so that the manufacturers could improve their "processes" and the High-Command" could go back to that manufacturer if they had a lot of problems with the barrel-extensions.
Also, it you note, barrel-extensions are usually "stamped" with "manufacturer-code" and "lot-code" prior to heat-treatment....then engraved for the Waffenampts (acceptance-markings).........where barrels could be marked by:
Early-barrels: large markings would be sometimes engraved.....and others stamped. (except barrel-extensions acceptance-marks on heat-treated-steel).
Mid-war-barrels......."usually" all stamped/not enough time for "engraving" (but some manufacturers still engraved their "codes")......again, with the exception of Barrel-Extension Waffenampts/acceptance-marks.
Late-war barrels.......usually stamped.....less markings such as dates as the war progressed.....again, sometimes even the acceptance-marks were omitted on the extensions.
NOTE: On the MG34......I have not even touched on "date-markings"....nor on drilled vent-holes...nor on drilled/pinned extensions vs. later "staked" extensions to retain the barrel.
You have to be careful with some barrels......the "Bottle-neck" in their manufacture of barrel-assemblies was the Barrel-Extension.......so the Extensions were re-used.........later/new barrels mounted to used/older extensions.
Collectors have to be careful in buying even "parts" such as barrel-assemblies..........several Post-War countries used MG34s and made up their own barrels either from new-stock....or the locating of surplus MG34 barrel-assemblies where they could find them.
Re-barreling of an order "Extension" onto a new )or used) barrel is often seen.........and a good "tell" on some of these is the second "stake-mark" on a used-barrel.
On a side note......even the guys with MG42 barrels with "curved-cuts" on the roller-locking grooves believe that all of the "curved-cut" extensions are early-manufacture.......and believe that the extensions with "straight-cuts" are all later war...........they would not understand the Post-War Barrel-Extensions that I have in my collection without any WWII markings/codes....but only the long "Post-War" Germany Army "Part-Numbers" that were stamped on new barrel-extensions prior to heat-treatment and made for the Post-War MG59, MG1, MG3...."but" have the "curved-locking-roller-cuts".......??.
Regards, RichardS in MI.
Blanksguy2001@chartermi.net
When collecting these parts/parts-kits........think of how the many guns that were brought back by returning GIs looked..........and the collector-market w/imports back about 20-30 years ago............look at those guns and parts .......... I do not believe that you will find even close to 5% of the "line-outs" or "re-numbered" parts....nor the welded-over/regrounded areas on parts/assemblies where they were "re-worked" so that they could be "re-numbered"/"matched-numbers".......usually for a higher $$$$$ price.
Again.....as a reminder.....you are posting in the MG34 Setion so we will cover just those MG34 items.
First......earlier German MG34 items (Pre-WWII) would have the many acceptance-stamps and manufacturer's "tracking-Numbers" for certain items......barrels (and barrel-extensions) would be marked during manufacture.
Barrels issued with earlier MG34s would have the serial-numbers sometimes engraved......initially 4-barrels per gun either numbered 1-2-3-4 or A-B-C-D........and I recall something about an "S" for fully usable barrels......as the barrels wear....a smaller "s" would be put next to the capital "S" to show a worn-barrel. Later guns were issued with 2-barrels.......then just what was in the gun was sent to the front/"shipping-point".
You have to note that the German War Machine had more time to make things look "pretty" and functional prior to the outbreak of WWII......as time went on, many of the acceptance-stamps and engraving went away (usually, but not always).....would depend on who ran the instections.
Barrels were also marked with caliber measured.....that's the very small 7.90, 7.91, 7.92, 7.93, etc. that you see stamped on the barrel next to the barrel-extension.
On the Barrel-Extensions......more time to mark them "pre-war" and less time as the war progressed.
Barrel-Extensions on the MG34 you will find no serial-numbers.....just the waffenampts, manufacturer's-codes, and sometimes you will find what we call "lot-numbers" or "tracking-codes" for the manufacturers to track how these heat-treated parts held up for wear and cracking during use.......so that the manufacturers could improve their "processes" and the High-Command" could go back to that manufacturer if they had a lot of problems with the barrel-extensions.
Also, it you note, barrel-extensions are usually "stamped" with "manufacturer-code" and "lot-code" prior to heat-treatment....then engraved for the Waffenampts (acceptance-markings).........where barrels could be marked by:
Early-barrels: large markings would be sometimes engraved.....and others stamped. (except barrel-extensions acceptance-marks on heat-treated-steel).
Mid-war-barrels......."usually" all stamped/not enough time for "engraving" (but some manufacturers still engraved their "codes")......again, with the exception of Barrel-Extension Waffenampts/acceptance-marks.
Late-war barrels.......usually stamped.....less markings such as dates as the war progressed.....again, sometimes even the acceptance-marks were omitted on the extensions.
NOTE: On the MG34......I have not even touched on "date-markings"....nor on drilled vent-holes...nor on drilled/pinned extensions vs. later "staked" extensions to retain the barrel.
You have to be careful with some barrels......the "Bottle-neck" in their manufacture of barrel-assemblies was the Barrel-Extension.......so the Extensions were re-used.........later/new barrels mounted to used/older extensions.
Collectors have to be careful in buying even "parts" such as barrel-assemblies..........several Post-War countries used MG34s and made up their own barrels either from new-stock....or the locating of surplus MG34 barrel-assemblies where they could find them.
Re-barreling of an order "Extension" onto a new )or used) barrel is often seen.........and a good "tell" on some of these is the second "stake-mark" on a used-barrel.
On a side note......even the guys with MG42 barrels with "curved-cuts" on the roller-locking grooves believe that all of the "curved-cut" extensions are early-manufacture.......and believe that the extensions with "straight-cuts" are all later war...........they would not understand the Post-War Barrel-Extensions that I have in my collection without any WWII markings/codes....but only the long "Post-War" Germany Army "Part-Numbers" that were stamped on new barrel-extensions prior to heat-treatment and made for the Post-War MG59, MG1, MG3...."but" have the "curved-locking-roller-cuts".......??.
Regards, RichardS in MI.
Blanksguy2001@chartermi.net
When collecting these parts/parts-kits........think of how the many guns that were brought back by returning GIs looked..........and the collector-market w/imports back about 20-30 years ago............look at those guns and parts .......... I do not believe that you will find even close to 5% of the "line-outs" or "re-numbered" parts....nor the welded-over/regrounded areas on parts/assemblies where they were "re-worked" so that they could be "re-numbered"/"matched-numbers".......usually for a higher $$$$$ price.
-
cipollinaj
- Feldwebel
- Posts: 57
- Joined: Sun Jun 18, 2006 10:41 pm
- Location: NY
Re: Serial Numbers?
I'll tell you,
you learn alot on this site.
Thanks all.
One other Question about font,
does anyone have samples of font that
"scream" the difference between WWII font
and post war font.
For example, the stamped serial # 1937 on my MG34 top cover does not seem to be
tampered with yet the #1 sits on a base
where I see on other stamped MG34 covers the #1
has no base ( just like the 1 here on my dell computer).
Also my #7 has the long vertical line squiggle a bit as it comes down
not like the 7 here (as I see on other MG34 covers).
My top cover has:
Clc
two waffenamts
and serial number 1937
no strikeouts nor tampering.
The patina on all parts of metal looks same.
Were there different style WWII fonts
or is just a later serial # stamping of an unstamped top cover?
John
PS- I know pictures would be great here but I would need my sons to help me out on that
you learn alot on this site.
Thanks all.
One other Question about font,
does anyone have samples of font that
"scream" the difference between WWII font
and post war font.
For example, the stamped serial # 1937 on my MG34 top cover does not seem to be
tampered with yet the #1 sits on a base
where I see on other stamped MG34 covers the #1
has no base ( just like the 1 here on my dell computer).
Also my #7 has the long vertical line squiggle a bit as it comes down
not like the 7 here (as I see on other MG34 covers).
My top cover has:
Clc
two waffenamts
and serial number 1937
no strikeouts nor tampering.
The patina on all parts of metal looks same.
Were there different style WWII fonts
or is just a later serial # stamping of an unstamped top cover?
John
PS- I know pictures would be great here but I would need my sons to help me out on that