How much WWII German Surplus in Russia (?).

Anything MG42 related.
Blanksguy
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How much WWII German Surplus in Russia (?).

Post by Blanksguy »

As a new topic....as it relates to the WWII German MG-42 (and WWII German MG34)....how much WWII German "Surplus"/Old Russian capture items are still in storage (?).

Do we have anyone who can "confirm" what remains (?).....or are/have the Russian reached the bottom of the "pile" when it comes to "original" WWII German MG42 and MG34 Tripods, etc. (?). ...or has more than we would like to think, been turned into steel-scrap for their steel-content (?).

The reason that I ask this.....and not trying to push my ad in the F/S Section........I received a couple of e-mails from a "Company" in Russia that is looking at my MG-34 Lafette for a purchase (???-even with shipping-costs ???)............I e-mailed the man back.....and he tells me that due to the overly-large sales and shipments of surplus (those MG34 Lafette-Tripods) out of Russia ........it is now next to impossible to locate any......even after I informed him of the sellers in England, Norway, and some in Germany.

Questions are:
1: Are we starting to run out of some WWII German collectables (?).
2: Can this be confirmed by a source in Russia with the ability to check into this (?).

Regards, RichardS in MI.
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BUILDIT

Re: How much WWII German Surplus in Russia (?).

Post by BUILDIT »

I think i read something that said no surplus guns or parts have come from russia it self but. Only from all former satellite countries. if that were true there are piles of cool stuff stashed away .but I'm not sure
Sledge303

Re: How much WWII German Surplus in Russia (?).

Post by Sledge303 »

The Russians wrote and abide by a "Voluntary Restraint Agreement" (VRA) that controls what firearms they will export. They have revised it once to include newer production model firearms that didn't exist when the original document was written. The US DoS also works to enforce the VRA by only granting import permits for the firearms listed on the document.
The document can be found on the web. It is easy to deduce that Tokarev's (rifle and pistols) Makarov's and Russian M1891 rifles are NOT listed.
Russian M1891/30's, M44's, M38's, German K98's and Lee-Enfields ARE on the list and can be imported.
I don't remember if the VRA has any impact on surplus items that fit the "Implements and Articles" of war definition, such as tripods, belt loaders, etc...
Dan@AngolaArmory

Re: How much WWII German Surplus in Russia (?).

Post by Dan@AngolaArmory »

Richard,
Sledge is correct. There are still vast amounts of WWII MG34's and 42's in Russia, as well as brand new SKS's we can't import due to Bill Clinton, besides the fact they want retail prices for what can be exported, they are walking around with copies of Shotguns News in thier back pockects, for God's sakes. They have gone so far as to say"we'll mark K98's any way you want". Gives you a warm fuzzy feeling about dealing with the major arms brokers over there. No thanks.
Dan
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Re: How much WWII German Surplus in Russia (?).

Post by Blanksguy »

Thanks Dan, and others that have replied to my Topic....

My question(s) more concern the availability within "Russia"....which may (or may not) have a direct impact on availability (and long-term-prices) of these items in the USA.

I fully understand the "challanges" the "Importers" have with regards to not only our Import/BATF Regulations...but to the International VRA....and the challenges the "UN" is giving us.
I also understand in this "information-exchange" generation the ability of the Russian to look into pricing in other countries. (IE: ShotGunNews...the computer/E-Bay and GunBroker, etc..).

We could also speculate if/how surplus tripods could be shipped between other European Countries that are allowed export of these items to other countries......such as to England. (who can sell these items to the buyers in the USA).

Can it be confirmed that these items are still available in Russia (?).......and if so, why would a buyer in Russia look to our Board for a purchase of an MG34 or MG42 Lafette-Tripod to be shipped into Russia (knowing shipping-costs...and export/import challanges) (?).

....or, as the other European Nations start to allow their residents to "collect"/'reenact",......are those vast-quantities being (or have been) sold off (?).....as I am also getting quite a few e-mails from collectors and "reenactors" in Finland, Sweden, and the old Yugoslavian area asking for Blank-Adapting help....and looking for parts/accessories.

Possibly "Bergflak" up in Norway may have some insight into this area (?)....as he is much closer than we are.

At this point....I am trying to get a "handle" on/confirmation as to what is "available" in Russia..........and the future "prospects" for collectors in the USA.
Regards, RichardS in MI.
Blanksguy2001@chartermi.net
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Re: How much WWII German Surplus in Russia (?).

Post by Abominog »

I suspect your "buyer" is a hoax. There is no need for a Russian to buy a tripod from USA. More than likely, you'll be offered ten times what it's worth, and all you do is return some of the $$. But three weeks after you cash the check (and send $$ to Russia) turns out the check is bogus, and you're SOL.


In addition, the tripod is a controlled item; to legally export, you'll need to register with State Dept. ($2k), and get an export license.
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Re: How much WWII German Surplus in Russia (?).

Post by Blanksguy »

Abominog,
That's what I was thinking also as I have seen a lot of the "scams" that go on over the internet.
I know about the constantly changing Export/Import requirements....and lists of what requires licensing, permits, etc..

But it does go back to the other initial-questions that I had.
Can someone that has been to Russia.........verify the availability of WWII German equipment stock-piles in storage (?).......or were a lot of these items (such as Lafettes-Tripods) turned into scrap for their steel-content (?). What is really left (?).

The question bases itself around the recent "volume" of "very-new" looking items/accessories coming from Europe (with Waffenampts) that are sold on many of the Boards and auction-sites. .....and though the Lafettes that were Imported through England would be very had to "repo"..........are original items still in storage in Russia (?).....or are we seeing more and more of the "repo" items coming in (?).

Regards, RichardS.
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Re: How much WWII German Surplus in Russia (?).

Post by Bil »

Richard-I think you mean 'repro-as in reproduction.Repo is short for re-possesed-which means the original owners-Wehrmacht-are in possession.In that case we had better all watch out! :lol:
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PvtJoker

Re: How much WWII German Surplus in Russia (?).

Post by PvtJoker »

I don't believe Mr. Hitler is making any more (thank God) and the courts determined that the current German army is NOT legally the same as the army of the Third Reich (for liability purposes) so repossessing anything by them shouldn't be too much of a concern... :lol:
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Re: How much WWII German Surplus in Russia (?).

Post by bergflak »

Blanksguy wrote:Thanks Dan, and others that have replied to my Topic....

My question(s) more concern the availability within "Russia"....which may (or may not) have a direct impact on availability (and long-term-prices) of these items in the USA.

I fully understand the "challanges" the "Importers" have with regards to not only our Import/BATF Regulations...but to the International VRA....and the challenges the "UN" is giving us.
I also understand in this "information-exchange" generation the ability of the Russian to look into pricing in other countries. (IE: ShotGunNews...the computer/E-Bay and GunBroker, etc..).

We could also speculate if/how surplus tripods could be shipped between other European Countries that are allowed export of these items to other countries......such as to England. (who can sell these items to the buyers in the USA).

Can it be confirmed that these items are still available in Russia (?).......and if so, why would a buyer in Russia look to our Board for a purchase of an MG34 or MG42 Lafette-Tripod to be shipped into Russia (knowing shipping-costs...and export/import challanges) (?).

....or, as the other European Nations start to allow their residents to "collect"/'reenact",......are those vast-quantities being (or have been) sold off (?).....as I am also getting quite a few e-mails from collectors and "reenactors" in Finland, Sweden, and the old Yugoslavian area asking for Blank-Adapting help....and looking for parts/accessories.

Possibly "Bergflak" up in Norway may have some insight into this area (?)....as he is much closer than we are.

At this point....I am trying to get a "handle" on/confirmation as to what is "available" in Russia..........and the future "prospects" for collectors in the USA.
Regards, RichardS in MI.
Blanksguy2001@chartermi.net
Hi Richard!

What is hidden beyond closed doors yet unrevealed is still just that; UNREVEALED! The Russians themselves are not aware of any such stuff (until another door is opened!) There is in fact a new breed of collectors (probably the "new-rich") in Russia with $$ to spend, and they are willing to pay the price.
So far, all the Königsberg stuff that surfaced, like the Gurtfüller 41 and the Doppeltrommel halter has been swallowed by the market without any price-drop! And the stuff is allready rare again! The only "revelation" that really was a killer was the G43 mag-pouches. That lavine really messed up the market and destroyed the established market. If the Russians stored away MG34's there is a good chance there are tripods there as well. But I have heard no rumour of such items in existence. The tripods on the market are surplus from either Norwegian, Austrian or the Balkans
In my parts of the wood, all sources for tripods have dried up. Foreign investors are actually tracking down tripods from individual collections for sale!
Mit freundlichen Grüße

Bergflak
www.bergflak.com
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Re: How much WWII German Surplus in Russia (?).

Post by ChrisPCook »

I would be careful, it may be legit, but I got the same email about my Lafette. Chris.... BTW...what are the 34 Lafettes bringing nowadays?
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Re: How much WWII German Surplus in Russia (?).

Post by tomcatshaas »

ChrisPCook wrote:I would be careful, it may be legit, but I got the same email about my Lafette. Chris.... BTW...what are the 34 Lafettes bringing nowadays?
Can you say "chaaaching"? :mrgreen:

TC
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Re: How much WWII German Surplus in Russia (?).

Post by 7,92lover »

Hi,
Last year I brought an MP44 coming from Russia !
It was through a German importer. At firts I was sceptical because I know the K98 coming from Russia and are very re-worked weapons. But when I took it, I was very happy with it. It is a mismatched MP44 (some number coincide) but all the pieces are 100 % original and with a lot of WaA and codes, and with the bore shining. Unfortunately it's only semi-auto.
I know that import an original Mg-34 or Mg-42 it's another question, but who knows...

One think, anyone knows Russian ?
The mp44 came with a little Manual.
:D
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propos

Re: How much WWII German Surplus in Russia (?).

Post by propos »

"semi automatic hunting carbine" is essentially what it translates to. Has it been reworked to a semi only mode. I thought that all the MP44's were select fire.
As far as what might be in Russia is anybody's guess. Considering the vast amount of ordnance the the Russians captured and stored away, the probabilty that there's some real nice goodies stacked in a forgotten warehouse is pretty good. Hell, they're still cleaning up after the Great Patriotic War. I found an unfired but corroded 7.62x54R cartridge lying partially exposed in the dirt by the gate at the dacha. When we went to knock the dirt off of it, it broke apart. There are still fortifications in the forest surrounding the village where the dacha is located. I understand that you have to be a bit careful while traipsing around in the forest as there still are unexploded surprises waiting for the unwary. I still wonder what happened to all of the Win. 95's that were sold to Russia during WWI. I know some were imported into the States in the '50's or 60's IIRC. But nowhere near the 200,000 or so that were made.
I worked with a guy who had been a guard at Spandau prison while old Rudolf was a guest there. He had some very interesting stories to tell about the bastard. He also made a statement that may or not be true. He said he personally saw an underground storage facility full of German equipment that was there since WWII. They had sealed it up and left the stuff in there as it would have been too much trouble to remove it And who would want old German Army stuff anyway. Makes your heart race a wee bit doesn't it if it is true. Tons and tons of brand new unused German goodies. The stuff dreams are made of.
I'll bet there is so much war material stored away and forgotten throughout Eastern Europe that may never see the light of day. Would be nice though. Think of all the weapons we supplied to the partisans. I'll bet we didn't ask for them back them after the war either. Makes you wonder how much stuff is hidden away in attics and barns, etc.
Here's another story. A guy I worked for had a relative who fought in the Revolution. When this relative came home he took his uniform and sword and hung them up. They're still hanging on the wall according to him.
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Re: How much WWII German Surplus in Russia (?).

Post by Bil »

A friend of mine grew up in western Europe in the 50s/60s.He and his friends used to play in the old bunkers there.They found a bunch of rifles,ammo ,and a few mp 40s.He has some pics.The grownups found out,took away the stuff,and covered the bunker entrances with dirt,using a tractor.This was in the woods,and may still be there.Who knows what is stashed away still. ---bil
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propos

Re: How much WWII German Surplus in Russia (?).

Post by propos »

Darn, those grownups sure know how to spoil the fun. Hey, Bil, whatta you say we go over there and dig up those goodies. We can say were archeologists looking for Atlantis. Or maybe the Lost Ark. No, wait, that's stored away in some dusty old gov. warehouse along with Genghis Khan's tomb. Well, we'll think of something.
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Re: How much WWII German Surplus in Russia (?).

Post by 88comm »

I met a couple from England that were manning a booth at a gunshow in Chantilly, Va. Their stuff looked like new USGI canvas slings, mag pouches, pistol belts, Thompson Mags (drum and stick) and some other hardware. There were also a few very nice (new) looking Thompson machine guns on the table. Guys were glimpsing the stuff and kept walking. It looked so new that the assumption was that it couldn't be original. Looked like chinese imports.

I spent some time talking with the couple. It turned out that he was one of a few gundealers in England (I don't know how few) that posessed a license to import and deactivate weapons. He imported NEW, unopened, unused, cases of USGI Thompson submachine guns from Russia. This stuff had been shipped there during WW2 (to support our allies in the fight against the Nazi machine) and never issued. He was buying it out of the warehouse(s?) and shipping it to England (His license was key to this part) and then disassembling the guns and assembling dummy guns with aluminum receivers. All the canvas accessories were shipped with the weapons in the crates. They too were ORIGINAL WW2 issue, never out of the box.

He cannot sell the original guns (brand new) due to England's gun laws. With aluminum recievers they are non-guns and he can sell those.

His problem? What to do with several hundred (conservative number) new Thompson receivers that he cannot sell or export.

So to answer the initial question - Is there stuff in Russia yet to be found? I would guess that there is TONS of it. American and German and Russian. Remember the IMA Russian Maxim kits a few years back? Evidence of some of the stuff to be found.

The link below might not connect directly - search it on the web if it doesn't. This couple sells from England (source of the link) and they come to the US several times a year for the gunshows. Neat people. Wish I was related...

http://www.rytonarms.co.uk/site/home.php
88comm
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Re: How much WWII German Surplus in Russia (?).

Post by 88comm »

Just a note - ALL the guns listed by Ryton Arms are deactivated. None will shoot. Also, the ones in England cannot (at I understand it) be imported to the US because their deactivation is different than ours. One of theirs would not meet BATFE standards to import here.

Bummer
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Re: How much WWII German Surplus in Russia (?).

Post by longhorn109 »

I have never seen or heard of any deac guns being sold over here that have had the receiver replaced with an Al one. It would seem a lot of work for no reason as it is basically the bolt and barrel that are the guns over here. The receivers are basically untouched during deactivation.

Royton arms do import a lot of stuff from Russia and did a load of MG34's recently and I think a load of tommy guns that came out of Russia as well. However I don't think they do the deactivation work on them. All deac work has to be done to standard by one of the proof houses (there is one in Birmingham) and a certificate is issued to each deac weapon. I could not deactivate a weapon myself, even if I did it to spec, as it would legally still be a firearm until it has passed through the books. I believe there was a problem ( NOT with Royton Arms) with guns being sent in deactivated, being issued with the certificate then having the proof marks removed an going in again. This provided live arms with a deac certificate. So I think they all have to go to one of the proof houses. The deac cert will show the name of the company that presented the weapon for deactivation. Royton are on several of mine.

I have over 20 deacs in the house at the minute and they all have the receivers they were made with. I could be (probably am) wrong about the deac process as I don't know it all. I am going on what I have read about it.

I was wondering how they got FA machine guns into the USA. I thought there was a ban on importing them. I would be truly amazed if they were making SA guns for export. The paperwork alone would be enough to put me off :shock: export licenses, import licenses and BAFT approval.

I don't doubt what you are telling us I am just a bit skeptical about what they have told you. Where they pulling you leg? Arrgh its 4 am I am off to bed!
The only thing that helps me maintain my slender grip on reality is the friendship I share with my collection of singing potatoes.
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Re: How much WWII German Surplus in Russia (?).

Post by Gurowski »

I am dealing with the company in the UK who have imported all the Russian stuff. They tell me that the supply of MG42's has run out, and the next shipment of MG34's is the last.
But the stuff they had was impressive. Huge boxes of US belts, and thompson 5 cell pouches, and pallets of greasepapered thompson mags. ( I viewed it all about 3 weeks ago)
My wifes M1 Thompson came from them a year ago (another ex Russian one), and it was in unfired condition. (meaning there was no copper skidmark up the ramp from the mag to the chamber)
The rest of it was perfect as well, so it may well have been in storage since it arrived in Russia during the war, which is the story circulating.
They have the last load of Thompsons from Russia (well the Ukraine auctually), and they tell me there are no more.
They have loads of PPSH and PPS all wartime dated, along with pristine examples of the Nagant revolvers and the TT33 pistols. Very nice to see this stuff

Steve
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