250-round Patronenkasten

Post by **Pug42** » Fri Jan 19, 2007 5:36 am

I was lucky enough to acquire this mint condition aluminium ammo carrier with a bunch of stuff. I think its original paint, it has a WaA stamp in the right place, the tan leather trim looks right, and the shape of the hinge attachments etc is correct for wartime manufacture. It doesn't have a date stamp or maker mark that I can find so what do you think? Did I get lucky?

Sorry the WaA pic isn't too clear - I forgot how to do the macro setting properly! (It's my other half's camera)

-M60_Gunner- · Post by **-M60_Gunner-** » Fri Jan 19, 2007 6:20 am

I don't tend to think of ammo cans as a work of art but in this case, damn thats pretty!

:-P

Post by **Pug42** » Fri Jan 19, 2007 9:36 am

Post by **TOM R** » Fri Jan 19, 2007 10:45 am

very nice looks restored

Post by **Pug42** » Mon Jan 22, 2007 6:50 am

Yeah, I thought it might be restored, but the green paint goes underneath the small leather grips at the ends, and the main handle shows primer when you slide the leather tabs all the way to one side. The inside of the can was very greasy when I got it, with that familiar smell... mmmm

It's a nice can... end of. I ain't going to worry about it!

I'll have to get some pics of some of my more interesting bits eh?

Post by **tomcatshaas** » Mon Jan 22, 2007 7:23 am

Pug42,

in your opinion, what is the color of this can? dunkelgrau or feldgrau, or other.?

TC

Post by **Pug42** » Mon Jan 22, 2007 8:04 am

It's definitely RAL 6006, the colour we call Ordnance Green, or Feldgrau. It's a good match with other stuff I have of the same age, not just in terms of colour but the kind of semi-matt surface as well.

The steel ones that we have in our group are mainly the green, with a few grey ones. The tan ones are the least common in my experience, and they often have a red brown and olive green overspray, probably done when somebody was spraying a tank!

Post by **tomcatshaas** » Mon Jan 22, 2007 8:17 am

you sir are a wealth of knowledge! Do you have any good pictures of an orig. ammo cans in the grey or ordnance tan? We are in the process of making a sticky on this subject.

TC

Post by **Pug42** » Mon Jan 22, 2007 8:59 am

Thanks - I just keep my eyes and ears open and have a few good books!

This is a good site for all the stuff that goes with MG34/42s:

http://www.germanmilitaria.co.uk/index2.htm

Here's a couple of pics I've lifted off there to show colours etc. The one of the 3 double drum baskets shows the 3 main colours they come in, Dark Grey (Schwarzgrau RAL 7021) Ordnance Green (Feldgrau RAL 0006) and the elusive colour called Apple Green (Apfelgrun, either RAL 6021 or 6013 but nobody seems 100% sure as it's a discontinued colour like the Tan (Dunkelgelb 7028)) I have a double drum carrier in original tan so I'll try and get a pic of it for you...

Post by **TOM R** » Mon Jan 22, 2007 10:30 am

wowo that is an excellent site for info

Post by **Reichpapers** » Mon Jan 22, 2007 9:45 pm

That ammo can sure is pretty...very nice. The greens are so close. It could also be GrÃ¼n 6007 or OlivegrÃ¼n 6003.

As for the ApfelgrÃ¼n...ehhhhh..not sure what to say. I'd like to see other items in this color that are proven WWII German. IMA had a bunch of drum holders and drums in two greens. The drum carrier in the pic is a different color than the two drums it holds. The drum colors are what I call Yugo slime green, and the carrier a mint green. I had to exchange quit a few of the ones I received from IMA for the grey. The "mint green" ones were too new looking and I couldn't find any manufacturers codes on them. All of the greens have always been associated with Yugoslavian manufacture paint or field paint or repaints. I have bought a lafette, ammo drums, drum carrier and a few ammo cans in the "apfelgrÃ¼n color. Some barrel carriers, ammo cans and drums in the slime green color. I'm by no means an expert, the colors just go against everything I've read and been told

Also, here is a link to IMA's Apfelgrun drums:
http://www.ima-usa.com/product_info.php ... cts_id/297

Post by **Pug42** » Tue Jan 23, 2007 4:39 am

Yes I agree with you about Yugo green (slime green is a good name!) and it is easily recognisable as such, being fairly yellow. The two drums in the mint green basket look Yugo, and the 3 cans at the back on the left in the IMA pic are definitely Yugo green.

WW2 german forces did have another shade of green that collectors refer to as Apple Green, distinct from Olivgrun RAL 6003 and I have seen a fair number of items among reenactor friends and collections that defy instant categorisation. I must admit I don't associate the 'mint green' with any eastern european or postwar armies but I could be wrong. Norwegian repaints seem to involve a more 'Christmas tree' shade of green so it isn't that. Portuguese sourced stuff seems to be typically dark olive green, very similar to RAL 6006 actually. The lack of codes isn't always a clincher as not every basket got stamped, particularly towards the end of the war...

Then there's the Czech ones made postwar, or in East Germany... argh!

All part of what makes collecting this stuff fun eh?

Post by **Reichpapers** » Tue Jan 23, 2007 7:36 am

Don't get me wrong, I have seen the apfelgrun on quite a few items in the past, I think my flak tool box is one example (See IMA pic below). I just think the color does'nt jive on the ammo cans and drum carriers/drums.

Post by **Pug42** » Tue Jan 23, 2007 8:28 am

Hard to be totally sure about pictures posted on the internet, as colour rendition is not only subjective to each individual, but affected by the colour balance of each individual's monitor. As a graphic designer I deal in colour on a daily basis, and we have colour corrected monitors that we regularly calibrate with a separate gadget. Think of a row of TVs in an electrical store all showing the same programme - every screen is different isn't it?

To me the the flak box picture appears like a very faded ordnance tan rather than green! I am sure it isn't but that is how it appears. Conversely, of the trio of double drum carriers that I posted originally, the dark grey top one is spot on for Schwarzgrau, and the lower right is spot on for Ordnance green (Feldgrau). The mint green one... well I confess I really don't know with that one. It isn't the typical Yugo green that we do see a lot of... maybe it's Czech??

Do you have a definitive RAL code for the Apfelgrun? I can get my local hardware store to mix up RAL 6006 as it is still a current code, and it's a good match with my 60 year-old examples, just has a different 'sheen' to it. I've used it for various boxes and crates I've made in the same style as the MG34 transit box I have. I'd like to get some Apple green mixed up... just to see!

Post by **TOM R** » Tue Jan 23, 2007 8:56 am

I bought these as post war from marster a while back and they appear to be rearsonaled, waffened but they are lite green, and where the paint is chipped itis bare metal underneigth, no primer in visible, probly why the paint chips so easy

Post by **Pug42** » Tue Jan 23, 2007 9:10 am

Interesting... sold as postwar but with WaA stamps on and only one layer of paint... what do you reckon them as?

Option a) Postwar manufacture (from previously stamped parts) and paint

Option b) Wartime manufacture and postwar paint

Option c) Wartime manufacture and original paint, labelled incorrectly and you are quids in (!)

I wouldn't have any problem with hauling those around on one of our reenactment events as it's a colour that doesn't seem to raise any comment (unlike Yugo green) - I think most people assume it's the elusive Apfelgrun

I like them anyway... tell you what as it's postwar rubbish I'll give you fifty dollars for it

Wolf88 · Post by **Wolf88** » Tue Jan 23, 2007 10:30 pm

Nice stuff, guys.
I just wanted to ask if there were BLACk cans. I had one some time ago.
I am not sure if it was from the "Dark grey" series but it appeared dead black to me.

I also had a few desert camo cans from the Africa Korps and two that were orange-red. Maybe the orange/red ones were used in the Autumn only???

Post by **Pug42** » Wed Jan 24, 2007 4:39 am

There does seem to be some 'black' types, but not painted as such, more a blued or phosphated finish. The desert tan would be more of a brownish colour (RAL 8020) than the regular Ordnance tan (RAL 7028).

"Orange-red"? I have no idea what this is, would speculate it's either primer and no topcoat, or a field repaint using RAL 8012 Rotbrun, or Red brown - one of the official camo overspray colours for vehicles. Depending on how much it is diluted the colour can be anything from a deep red brown to a light almost pinkish shade. Also, the overspray colours were supplied to units as a concentrated paste, which could be diluted with kerosene or with water, either way giving a different colour result. Mixing with fuel gave a longer lasting finish, but as fuel was in short supply it was often mixed with used engine oil or anything surplus to hand so altering the colour even more!

German camo colours is a book in itself!

Could you post a pic of your "orange-red' ones, as I'm intrigued?

Edited to add a couple of pics from Ryton Arms site in UK:

Post by **tomcatshaas** » Wed Jan 24, 2007 7:43 am

Pug,

what is your opinion on my gurttrommel? original paint or repaint?

http://www.panzer46.net/mg42board/viewtopic.php?t=4261

TC

Wolf88 · Post by **Wolf88** » Wed Jan 24, 2007 8:51 am

Pug, I think I have photos somewhere, will try to find them and to post them here.