MG42/59 Identification

[Spiggs]

Hi Gents.

Glad to be on the site. A wealth of information here.

Im hoping you can help? I acquired a MG42 last year, its in cal 762x51. The gun has no markings, proof or otherwise. Im guessing its a MG42/59 and not a MG53

The photo quality is terrible as the pic was taken in an underground vault, Is it possible to identify by the recoil booster? and in turn the MG through this? Looks a lot different from any others ive seen,
The weapon is a fully operational, which is allowed as a collector in South Africa however is a very difficult permit to get.

My licence should hopefully be granted by the end of the year, maybe then I can detail strip and photograph properly.

All help appreciated.

[42rocker]

There are several different countries that have made them in post war setups in .308 or 7.62 x 51. Germany took a lot of stock and redid it into 7.62 x 51. You might be seeing a unmarked (end of war) receiver that was then redone in .308.
Would like to see more pics of course.
Have not seen a lot of flash hiders like that however.

Later 42rocker

[amafrank]

could be an MG1. All the MG42/59's I've seen are marked as such. The muzzle booster is not a good way to ID anything since the boosters are interchangeable between the 42 and all later variants. One possibility is the recuperator however. Look at the recuperator where it extends rearward in the receiver. Does it stop even with the rear grip frame or behind it? The MG3 has a longer recuperator than the earlier guns and the extra length is all behind the grip frame.

Hope that helps

Frank

[Der Alder]

I'm thinking I've seen that flash hider somewhere before. Didn't Beretta make a MG 42/59 for the Italian Army that used an odd looking FH? I would think it would have a marked receiver though if that were the case.

Please post more pics if you can. Does it have a heavy bolt, any markings on it?

[Spiggs]

I'm thinking I've seen that flash hider somewhere before. Didn't Beretta make a MG 42/59 for the Italian Army that used an odd looking FH? I would think it would have a marked receiver though if that were the case.

Please post more pics if you can. Does it have a heavy bolt, any markings on it?

Thanks for the replies guys, I shall make a trip up to the dealer when they open again after our holidays and try take many more photo's.

@Der Alder I think you may be onto something here. Another collector over here who saw the photo said exactly the same thing.

[Folke]

The flash hider is Italian for sure. Would be interesting to get detail shots of the gun.

[Spiggs]

The flash hider is Italian for sure. Would be interesting to get detail shots of the gun.

Here we go. I managed to get a few snaps today. The photo quality is not the greatest as the photo have been taken underground in terrible light.

[Spiggs]

[Spiggs]

[42rocker]

Very interesting. Also looking forward to hearing more about this from everyone. The bolt looks like a "Heavy Bolt" for a slower rate of fire.

Later 42rocker

[Der Alder]

I'm pretty sure now that’s a Berretta made 42/59 now that I see the rear stamp on the side.

It looks very well made, at least on par with German manufacturing, doesn't look rough like one might expect from a Paki or Iranian clone, which again leans me towards Berretta.

Berretta had a contract to make a licensed copy of the MG42 for the Italian army. I remember reading a post somewhere about them on another board. These guns were well liked by the Italians that used them from the post from a former Italian military personnel who was a gunner stated. They are still in use BTW.

In the pic, that also looks like the FH Beretta used as I had mentioned earlier. Not only that but the Beretta also used a "heavy bolt", going from 900 gr to 1200gr to slow the rate of fire from 1200+ to 900+ RPM. It also had a new attachment for a NATO reflection sight. Beretta also used "stellite" a treatment to improve barrel life and resistance to continuous firing. These were made for 7.62 NATO cartridge and M13 links.

I wonder if they also upgraded to the MG3 (.308) recuperator in these? If so it will have a long tail that seats against the lower left buffer plate which is cut-out for it.

Its got some proof markings on it, they are not Rhinmetall…what does the Beretta proof look like? That would tell us for sure. Anyone recognize them?

I recall too that very late in the war the Germans had a very similar looking flash-hider/muzzle brake - a rare prototype that looked much like this. I wonder if that is what may have inspired this manufacture to use this odd looking FH’er?

As a side note, the Italians also made a conversion for these for 5.56 use. For what I'm told it doesn't work well at least in comparison. The 7.62 is a beast though and runs well.

At any rate, very interesting and thank you for taking the time to post the pics. Neat find..

[fjruple]

I believe its an Italian made MG42/59 in 7.62mm NATO. Most of the parts are manufactured by Whitehead Motorfides Factories (letters WMF and the small emblem) for Beretta. Whitehead is primarily a manufacturer of torpedoes. Whitehead changed its name shortly after the gun was manufactured. Whitehead went on to manufacture strictly naval systems and Motorfides to manufacture other defense related articles. Whitehead was started by Robert Whitehead, an English Engineer who manufactured torpedoes for the Austrian-Hungarian Empire in Rijeka. Rijeka changed hands numerous times between the Italians, Yugoslavia, and finally Croatia. Whitehead moved out to Italy after WWII when Rijeka went to Yugoslavia. Yugoslavia still maintained the torpedo factory in Rijeka. But I digress.

--fjruple

[Spiggs]

Fantastic gents keep the information coming.

[Folke]

Interesting gun! If you could send me the pics in high resolution I could use them in the possible third volume on the MG34-42 guns. E-mail folkem@online.no

Regarding the flash hider, I dont know what made the Italians design this. It has no connection with the German muzzle brakes, which were experimental and used on the early MG42's (not the late war guns as suggested).

[Der Alder]

Spiggs,
If possible could you take a photo of the butt stock? It looks bakelite, but in the first pic it looks to have a flat butt plate (though it could be just shadowing). If possible as well if you could unlock the buffer and pull it out for an internal photo? I'd be interested if it uses the old style 8mm recuperator or the newer long 7.62 type. Also the bolt/carrier would be interesting to see. Oh and one last thing if you could unscrew the flash hider and take a pic of it to illustrate the muzzle brake holes and see if it uses a separate booster cone/nozzle.

I've been interested in the post branches (copies MG42) from other countries for a while now. Guns like the one you have are extremely rare here in the US.

The holy grail version to get of and photo document IMO would be the Finnish MG42/ 7.62x54R. Some day I'd like to take a vacaction to Finnland if I could get pesrmission to photogragh it.

[Spiggs]

Interesting gun! If you could send me the pics in high resolution I could use them in the possible third volume on the MG34-42 guns. E-mail folkem@online.no

Regarding the flash hider, I dont know what made the Italians design this. It has no connection with the German muzzle brakes, which were experimental and used on the early MG42's (not the late war guns as suggested).

I will be able to take decent photo's soon. These were taken using a cell phone in a vault. I spoke to the police yesterday and they say my permit for the weapon should be granted soon. Once this happens I can bring the firearm home and take as many photo's as we need.

[Spiggs]

Spiggs,
If possible could you take a photo of the butt stock? It looks bakelite, but in the first pic it looks to have a flat butt plate (though it could be just shadowing). If possible as well if you could unlock the buffer and pull it out for an internal photo? I'd be interested if it uses the old style 8mm recuperator or the newer long 7.62 type. Also the bolt/carrier would be interesting to see. Oh and one last thing if you could unscrew the flash hider and take a pic of it to illustrate the muzzle brake holes and see if it uses a separate booster cone/nozzle.

I've been interested in the post branches (copies MG42) from other countries for a while now. Guns like the one you have are extremely rare here in the US.

The holy grail version to get of and photo document IMO would be the Finnish MG42/ 7.62x54R. Some day I'd like to take a vacaction to Finnland if I could get pesrmission to photogragh it.

I can get some more cell phone pictures in the next coming weeks. The police also say my permit for the weapon should be granted soon. I will take the photo's you requested as soon as possible.

I believe this to be the only one in South Africa. A friend of mine owns a MG3 also the only one in the country.
We both also have the only 2 mg34's in the country as well. These were wartime bring backs and came out of Angola. I would love to know how they got there?!

[Spiggs]

[Spiggs]

[Spiggs]